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Initial Posts from Rivers of Honey Facebook Wall

These Facebook conversations appeared on the public Rivers of Honey Facebook Wall from 8/1-8/3/11; they were then deleted by the Rivers of Honey account owners with the exception of the first thread. That thread remained though many comments were deleted by the ROH account owners. Jack was banned from the Rivers of Honey page after these threads. When she learned that all except one of her comments were deleted from the wall she asked that the final comment be deleted as well; the ROH account owners did not delete that comment until 8/8/11 after the meeting at WOW Café Theatre.
 
The names and Facebook account information for everyone except the ROH producers have been changed to protect and respect their privacy.
 
First thread, beginning Monday 8/1/11:
 

The ROH Underwear party seeks to address and affirm the body image of both womyn and non-conforming folks. Some have asked for this party to include men. The safety for those attending the show is our primary concern. Men will not be allowed in this party. Please, instead use your politically driven brilliance to fight for more pressing issues instead of compromising the safety of equally as brilliant women.Monday at 1:46pm

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  • (Poster #1) and 5 others like this.
    • (Poster #2) Preach
      Monday at 1:51pm
    • Jack Aponte The event posting says "For Womyn only," but this post says "womyn and non-conforming folks." This causes confusion about who's welcome and who's not, e.g. (gender) non-conforming can include trans men and genderqueer folks who are male assigned, but it doesn't sound like they're invited. The language should be more clear and more consistent!
      Monday at 2:00pm · 4 people
    • Rivers-of Honey
      Good point Jack Aponte! Sorry for the confusion. It seems we are having an issue with language.
      For the sake of this conversation,
      sex = body
      gender = identity
      sexual orientation = practice/behaviors.
      To be clear, Rivers of Honey is for the daughters of Oshun.
      We are for female-bodied people, regardless of their gender identity, or sexual practice, who want to embrace the "Oshun-inspired-woman" within them.

      You are right about our consistency. We are taking steps to be more consistent and appreciate your feedback as we continue to grow.
      Yesterday at 1:06am
  • additional comments deleted before they were saved

Second thread beginning Tuesday 8/2/11:

It seems we are having an issue with language.
For the sake of this conversation,
sex = body
gender = identity
sexual orientation = practice/behaviors.
To be clear, Rivers of Honey is for the daughters of Oshun.
We are for female-bodied people, regardless of their gender identity, or sexual practice, who want to embrace the "Oshun-inspired-woman" within them.

14 hours ago ·  ·

  • Poster #3 likes this.
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      Jack Aponte ‎"Female-bodied" is usually used to mean anyone assigned female at birth. So this seems to say that ROH (and this party) is for cisgendered/non-trans women, genderqueer & non-conforming folks assigned female at birth, and trans men, and that ROH is NOT for trans women or anyone else assigned male at birth. Is that correct?

      8 hours ago · 
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      Jaz Cruz The posting is very clear

      6 hours ago · 

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      Poster #4 Jack shut the f@#k up! Thank you Rivers for having a safe space for WOMEN only.

      5 hours ago · 
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      Jack Aponte ‎@Jaz – the posting is not clear, since it contradicts other postings that say that the event is for womyn or for womyn and non-conforming people.

      5 hours ago · 
    •  

      Jack Aponte ‎@Poster #4 – I am a genderqueer woman of color who was once a member of WOW and helped to run Rivers of Honey; however, I guess I can't expect the virtual spaces associated with Rivers to be a safe space for me unless I shut the fuck up? Also, I am FINE with the space being women only, provided that includes trans women. If it doesn't, then that exclusion needs to be made explicit.

      5 hours ago · 
    •  

      Shawn Smith Hi Jack, I actually am the one who changed the language, last night, not Jaz Cruz. If you'd like to talk off line, then I'm very open to this dialog.

      2 hours ago · 
    •  

      Shawn Smith Jack, also, I'm happy that you were able to see this sacred space for what it is not... Although, there are many things for what it is. We've changed the language on other locations and are working to ensure consistency in language. As a former member of WOW, I'm sure you are aware of the challenges for which language can move and transgress and live. We appreciate your feedback and I'm sorry that Poster #4 felt the need to curse, that

      2 hours ago · 
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      Shawn Smith is not what this is about.

      2 hours ago · 
    •  

       

      Jaz Cruz ‎@ Poster #4 your welcome Thank you for being a warrior and standing up for your beliefs. @ Shawn thank you for bein the warrior of light xo and on this team with me.

      2 hours ago · 
    •  

       

      Jack Aponte ‎@Shawn – thanks for the response. I definitely understand the challenges and limitations of language and I'm not just trying to nitpick rhetoric; I'm trying to highlight where the language that's being used is misleading and potentially harmful or contradictory to what ROH and WOW are all about. I'd be down to discuss this elsewhere, but I do think that a consistent, public message about who is or is not welcome and why is important.

      about an hour ago ·

 

Third thread beginning Wednesday 8/3/11

 

The Wow Cafe Theatre website says that "any woman and/or transgender person is invited," but the Rivers of Honey descriptions here on FB say that Rivers of Honey is for "female-bodied people." That language is usually understood to exclude trans women (and excludes a lot of other transgender people, too!) Does ROH have a different gender inclusion stance than WOW as a whole? Could we get some clarity? Thanks! about an hour ago · · · See Friendship

  •  
    • Poster #5 I think at WOW the producer can decide who is invited Jack. ROH has an identity seperate than WOW. Why don't you go to the show and talk to ROH people in person if you have beef with the underwear party invites.
      27 minutes ago ·
    • Poster #5 It's always better to talk in person than to argue on fb no? Lot's of hyperbole flying, but why not go in person?
      26 minutes ago ·
    • Jack Aponte ‎@Poster #5: I'm not arguing; I'm asking for public clarity on public statements. And I don't have beef with the underwear party invites; I'm asking about the language that's being used here to describe Rivers of Honey as a whole, not just that party.
      24 minutes ago ·
    • Poster #5 And I'm telling you - go talk to and meet with Shawnta and Jaz and ROH people. They have specific reasons for doing things the way they do and again ROH is part of WOW but also a seperate collective now.
      22 minutes ago ·